A New Vision and Evolution in Customer Experience

Transcript

[00:00:01] Steve MacDonald: Welcome everyone to the Contact Center Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host, and today we have a very interesting guest on—Filip Popovic. Now Filip, you are the Head of the Relationship Centre, Worldwide for Avon. That’s a lot of responsibility, and with that, you’re constantly thinking through things you actually called the Golden Triangle.

[00:00:24] Steve MacDonald: You talk about data and technology in your BPO partnerships, and how you think about bringing all those together in a best-practice way. So we’re going to dive into that really deeply today, but what I wanted to do first is give you an opportunity to explain a little bit more about your background.

[00:00:41] Steve MacDonald: A couple of things that are really interesting that I found out in our conversations—you called your number one role in life your “CDO” role: Chief Dad Officer. I love that. I’ve actually used that in my own family, and my kids didn’t buy it. My wife didn’t buy it, but I still tried.

[00:01:02] Steve MacDonald: And you just got back from a really nice trip where you were a digital nomad and traveled with them. So before we get started here, if you wouldn’t mind expanding a little bit more on your background, then we’ll dig into the topic.

[00:01:15] Filip Popovic: Sure, Steve, thanks a lot. Thanks for your invitation.

[00:01:18] Filip Popovic: I do appreciate that—not only that you invited me as an expert from the area to discuss certain things, but also as a podcast consumer, I find it a privilege to be here today with you. So thanks a lot for that.

[00:01:28] Filip Popovic: And talking about my Chief Dad Officer role, please keep in mind that I have a very difficult time working with my Chief Financial Officer, which is my wife, and very talented associates—my kids.

[00:01:45] Filip Popovic: So being Chief Dad Officer is a difficult role where I serve them greatly. Still, there’s nothing about being chief there—it’s just serving my family properly. But I do enjoy it. Being in this stage, I find spending time with my family really important. That’s my key energy, that’s my key motivation.

[00:02:09] Filip Popovic: And yes, you’re right. Sometimes we just turn on the car and leave for a few weeks on a trip. That’s still possible because my kids haven’t started school yet, so we can still explore time together. We spent six weeks together in one part of Europe, and it was really amazing—a real family reconnection and a lot of fun.

[00:02:32] Filip Popovic: Thanks a lot for reminding me about that role as well.

[00:02:36] Steve MacDonald: Well, it’s important. That’s a very important balance in life. We can get out of balance that way, so I’m glad that you’re not. But here’s what I’d love to do—ask you about selecting the right BPO partner.

[00:02:54] Steve MacDonald: From a technology standpoint, all the BPO partners that you have—right? We can’t be experts in everything. We have to rely on partners, we have to rely on people. Maybe if you wouldn’t mind, start by telling me your philosophy on the importance of BPO partners and the role they play in what you’re doing at Avon.

[00:03:09] Filip Popovic: Definitely. I would say that BPO partners are—well, I can’t say anything else—they are Avon. From the moment we connect and they start working for us, they represent us in front of our consumers the way Avon should be represented. Our consumers don’t care who is picking up the phone—it’s Avon. It might be this provider or another provider, it’s Avon.

[00:03:40] Filip Popovic: From that angle, I appreciate our connection with all our vendors. But also, what we as a team are doing is very detailed and careful selection of the companies that we work with. Because as I mentioned, they are the front face of the company. We provide the first connection with our consumers through a provider, which means a huge effort has to be made there.

[00:04:04] Steve MacDonald: Tell me a little bit about that. There are so many different dimensions, right? In terms of feeling like they’re just an extension of Avon. They have to have the right knowledge, they have to adopt the culture, and have the right philosophy for dealing with your customers.

[00:04:24] Steve MacDonald: How do you think about that? And how do you work with them? We like to call it “training,” but what you’re talking about is an ecosystem that works together on a whole new level. I’d love to hear your thoughts on how you create that ecosystem.

[00:04:39] Filip Popovic: Steve, I would say it’s co-creation. It’s not just delivering training. Yes, we do deliver training sometimes, but we also act on feedback from our BPOs—what our reps are saying, how they want to be treated, and even the tone of voice we use.

[00:05:00] Filip Popovic: Now, our providers or BPOs are actually advising us what to do, because the moment you lose the direct connection with your consumers, it’s not about you understanding how to do that anymore. That was a few years ago, when we transferred the knowledge from Avon to the BPOs.

[00:05:20] Filip Popovic: Now, we rely on their soft skills, which have been upgraded from the BPO side. Knowledge about products, operational topics, or business model changes—that’s still something Avon delivers and will continue delivering, because we’re creating that.

[00:05:40] Filip Popovic: So you see this synergy—it’s co-created. And I appreciate it even more. Because if I create a wrong model and have to communicate something to our consumers, I could try to fill that gap or hide it.

[00:06:00] Filip Popovic: But now, from the BPOs, we receive immediate feedback that something is wrong. There’s no opportunity to hide any issue happening internally, because the feedback is very straightforward and objective.

[00:06:15] Filip Popovic: We don’t even need to translate what the reps are saying. We receive it from the BPO: “Your programs are complex.” “The motivational products you’re offering as prizes are not effective.” Or, “We love your new delivery model.” “We love the new earnings opportunity.” This is what we’re now clearly receiving from our BPOs.

[00:06:50] Filip Popovic: So you see—it’s not just us delivering training anymore. We rely on our BPOs big time. That’s why this partnership is important. It’s co-creation. Yes, we might have a BPO to whom we deliver everything, but that’s not the best relationship.

[00:07:14] Filip Popovic: That’s not the kind of relationship we want to keep long-term. We would rather turn to this co-creation model—a real partnership.

[00:07:23] Steve MacDonald: From everything I’m taking away from what you just said, in that true partnership, there has to be a tremendous amount of trust. And trust is something that can’t be given—it has to be earned.

[00:07:39] Steve MacDonald: I’m getting the understanding from what you’re saying that it’s a reciprocal relationship. Over time, it’s built on trust, where you’re learning as much from them as they are from you. Did I get that right?

[00:07:56] Filip Popovic: Yes. But let me add to that. Trust in the partnership is built from the moment we start the RFI process. From the first impression, when companies start presenting themselves to us—that’s when we start learning and building trust.

[00:08:14] Filip Popovic: I don’t believe in resetting a provider to zero and saying, “Let’s now start building trust,” only once they start working for us.

[00:08:27] Filip Popovic: I’ll not feel comfortable with that one. Actually, the trust is built much earlier, and it gives them a chance to earn even more trust and actually us to earn trust on their side because it’s mutual—it’s a continuous, reciprocal relationship. It’s never just us treating someone as a partner.

[00:08:47] Filip Popovic: We need BPOs to also treat us as a partner and think long-term about us and all those things. Although I’m on the side of Avon, they’re actually delivering something to us. We also need the BPOs treating us as a partner because it’s a mutual connection. Definitely.

[00:09:05] Steve MacDonald: You said something in there—you used the term long-term.

[00:09:09] Steve MacDonald: It’s a long-term partnership, right? That’s a mentality. You’re going into it with that. A lot of companies, when they’re looking for BPO partners, they’re looking for a low-cost outsource, right? And if it’s not working, they could be traded in and out. It’s more of a commodity-type relationship, and that’s not at all what you’re describing—a long-term partnership. How do you judge a BPO partner to understand that you’re getting a partner back?

[00:09:40] Steve MacDonald: That’s not the way that a lot of the BPO world works, right?

[00:09:44] Filip Popovic: Yeah, you’re right. It’s not the way. However, I think that all the BPOs also deserve clear inputs and clarity on the company’s goals. And by the way, if my goal is to have a cheap provider and take costs out, that’s my strategy. Even in those circumstances, I do believe the partner on the other side might be right, because if I communicate that it’s about cost, then we go for cost.

[00:10:12] Filip Popovic: If I communicate that it’s about value, then we go for value. If I communicate that what Avon is doing is about taking costs out and bringing value up—it’s a very difficult relationship, I know, but still, we have to work together. It’s not me giving them directions, especially not on how to do it. I can say Avon needs this, but how we can do that together—that’s my way of opening the doors to our providers, helping us achieve what Avon needs.

[00:10:40] Filip Popovic: And then, basically, every provider—we work with them. I can say every provider understands the logic. Some of them shake hands and deliver what’s asked. While some of them don’t understand what’s requested, and all other things.

[00:11:05] Filip Popovic: I don’t want to talk about those that don’t understand because obviously, it’s a short-term relationship, and I don’t think they deserve being mentioned. But the ones who understand what our needs are, whether that’s a hard cost-cut or a huge investment in value, are the real partners.

[00:11:29] Filip Popovic: It’s not us micromanaging them. I mean, you hire a BPO to deliver something for you with the understanding and trust that they are experts in the area. I know how to build a strategy, most probably, for Avon. However, even after I build it, I have to consult them: Is this real? Is this 2025? 2028? Or is it too early for 2030, for example?

[00:11:56] Filip Popovic: It’s too early—or don’t even go there because it’s too old.

[00:12:00] Filip Popovic: So you see, it’s co-creation, even on a strategy level. Though I might have a budget target, as an example, it’s completely fine for me if the partner helps us achieve realistic targets and what’s needed on our side. When you click there, that’s a real partner.

[00:12:18] Filip Popovic: That’s how we find them.

[00:12:20] Steve MacDonald: You know, it’s interesting because, even in 2025, you mentioned, right, we’re in 2025 today, on an industry level—not even talking about BPO partners, but the customer experience or customer support department within a lot of companies, even in 2025, is still viewed more as a cost center than a value center, an investment center, an experience center.

[00:12:48] Steve MacDonald: Right? So that’s an industry-wide issue, and I know that you’ve addressed that, and that’s not the case inside of Avon. But how do you work with your BPO partners so that they don’t feel like that?

[00:13:00] Steve MacDonald: This partnership, this reciprocal feedback—that’s one of the biggest issues that most companies have: there’s broken feedback between the tremendous knowledge that BPOs have, having most every interaction with the customer, not having it translated or reaching other departments. How do you work with your BPO partners to create a better communication flow? This is something that somebody said a few months ago on the podcast—that they help make you smarter, right? That you’re learning from them as well.

[00:13:35] Filip Popovic: Yeah. If we are not learning from them, that’s not the proper relationship because we are also paying to learn from BPOs. A lot of things, for example, the experience feedback from our representatives and consumers—because who else can give us feedback if not the BPO, with the usage of their technology or any other? Maybe our technology as well, but with something they can use to sum up the experience of our consumers.

[00:14:08] Filip Popovic: So you see how much we’re learning from them on a daily level. It’s a very important thing. At Avon, we are a social selling business, which means connections matter a lot. So from that perspective, yes, obviously, we are spending some money—we are giving some money to our BPOs—but we are also giving money to our associates as well.

[00:14:31] Filip Popovic: So as a department, we might be assumed as a cost department, but the value we are bringing is clear from the experience agenda perspective. Because there’s no chance that anyone else can bring a better daily pulse of the mood of our consumers, if not the call center. I mean, reps are consumers—they’re calling us for something, and by default, they’re not calling us because everything is great.

[00:15:00] Filip Popovic: They’re calling us because they might need some support, or there is something wrong. Rarely do they call us to tell us, “Oh, that was amazing, thank you.” It’s obviously a rare effort from both the reps and the consumers.

[00:15:25] Filip Popovic: It’s not only showing them that we appreciate their effort and the experience and knowledge they’re sharing with us; we have to constantly highlight that. We do expect that this profile of our consumers will call us. We do expect that.

[00:15:45] Filip Popovic: What are the trainings and tactics we’re delivering to our team of agents? I call them ours because they support our consumers. What are the trainings we’re delivering to them so they can lower the pressure?

[00:16:00] Filip Popovic: It’s expected that this profile of a consumer will call us, rarely to say “thank you,” and that’s completely normal. But not only that, we are also trying to do upsell, cross-sell activities in some of the markets. Avon is only now experiencing this in some of the markets, becoming more senior—like with one-year experience—and really delivering sales from a very simple connection. It’s a magic to convert an angry consumer into a happy buyer, and that’s a solid job.

[00:16:24] Filip Popovic: Converting someone asking for any type of support into a buyer on the spot—that’s the magic. And we do appreciate our BPOs developing this profile of the agents and delivering this to us. As you mentioned, clear feedback is very important. It might also come from the cultural aspect, and coming from Montenegro, like the Balkans, we deliver feedback very openly.

[00:16:52] Filip Popovic: With respect, in a very human way, but very openly. Black is black, white is white. There are no hidden sentences. We deliver it right as it is with only one purpose: If it’s wrong, let us fix it. If it’s good, I congratulate you. So when they see this very human approach—even if it’s a disaster, we fix it together.

[00:17:16] Filip Popovic: That’s why partnership is key—they don’t immediately take a position where they have to fight back or justify and explain. Of course, I am looking for the justification or explanation, but I need things to be sorted out. Let us try to sort them out, and then later on, we can follow up on what happened and all these things.

[00:17:38] Filip Popovic: And I think that’s what partnership is. It’s not just about having nice moments together, but how you pass through those difficult moments together. Let’s be very open and honest. There’s a fire everywhere on a daily level—that’s why you have a call center. I love that.

[00:17:55] Steve MacDonald: There’s a fire everywhere every day, but you still have to have that magic, right? To convert.

[00:18:01] Steve MacDonald: I love the way you put that—to convert an angry customer into a happy customer, not only a happy customer but maybe even a cross-sell or upsell opportunity. That is a very important skill set. You talk so eloquently about feedback, and these days, there’s so much—there are so many agents, both internally and at your BPO partners, that are having conversations, that technology is becoming more and more important in aggregating, analyzing, and taking action with that feedback.

[00:18:36] Steve MacDonald: I’d love to know your point of view on technology. Do you rely on the technology of your BPO partners? Do you have your own internal technology? What’s your point of view on making sure that you’re using technology? And at this day and age of AI, it’s going to get even more and more important. How do you do that?

[00:18:54] Filip Popovic: Let me share with you our latest example—a very clear example of what we were experiencing over the last three months, using AI to help summarize all the open comments we are having from our representatives. So, we asked AI to help us.

[00:19:17] Filip Popovic: We gave it a bulk of open comments from our representatives, and then AI summarized the profile of the rep and gave us this feedback. Talking about AI nowadays, I clearly realize that some of our agents, or even associates at Avon, start worrying about their jobs, which is completely not the case.

[00:19:40] Filip Popovic: We had massive data in our hands that no human could process. Plus, a human would do it subjectively—there’s no chance for it to be objective. Even if, for example, you hire a human to do some data analysis on a vendor side, they might hide certain comments related to agents.

[00:20:05] Filip Popovic: Or if we do it in-house, they might hide some comments about our company. So we started experimenting over the last few months with giving AI our open comments from our reps, and then AI summarizes those comments for us. It’s a massive change in the approach, and actually a completely new process and way of processing this data.

[00:20:32] Filip Popovic: It surprised us a lot. You clearly see that no one is hidden. Everyone is on the spot. And now it’s up to us to realize that it’s not the department being on the spot to play, but to accept the feedback and move forward. So you see the big gap we now have in terms of the quality of people we need working on quality.

[00:21:00] Filip Popovic: We don’t need to defend. It’s a hundred percent true what AI summarized to us. It’s a hundred percent true. So we clearly know it’s the truth. You don’t need to prevent it—you have to find a way to make it better or fight internally against the issue. So our consumers, in months two or three, are actually happier with us because, again, like magic, we’re converting an unhappy rep to a happy one or an unhappy consumer into one buying something further.

[00:21:29] Filip Popovic: But what’s very important to accept is that there’s no consumer picking up the phone with the aim to leave us. They pick up the phone at least as an opportunity to us. They say, “I’m calling because I need help.” If they’re leaving, they’re not calling anymore—they’ve made the decision to leave. The ones who call us, they’re still open to a solution.

[00:21:55] Filip Popovic: You see how it’s important that we accept them properly and treat them properly at the moment of them calling us. Because this might be our last chance. And then converting that last chance into a future customer or continued buyer is also a metric. Sometimes you have added revenue, sometimes you maintain the revenue.

[00:22:20] Filip Popovic: That’s what the call center does all the time, even before we started with these revenue streams. I truly believe that the majority of angry consumers, if they buy again, you’ve helped them stay with us. You’ve helped the company keep them.

[00:22:45] Filip Popovic: If we are a cost generator, this is what we are doing—we are keeping our consumers happy and ensuring they stay with us, not only when they’re angry.

[00:22:57] Steve MacDonald: And that retention and NRR (net revenue retention) is something that every company should be focused on. What you’re talking about clearly separates you from a cost center to a value center. You’re upselling, you’re cross-selling, you’re retaining customers, you’re changing.

[00:23:14] Steve MacDonald: That’s the magic, right? That’s why it’s so hard to think about why we still have a reputation throughout the industry as a cost center. Right? Two questions that I have that I want to make sure I ask. You have an audience here that includes people running call centers and experience centers inside their companies.

[00:23:36] Steve MacDonald: You have BPO partners that are listening. If there was one thing that you wanted to communicate to others like you who are running customer support call centers internally, what would you want to say to them? What would you want to say to the BPO partners that are listening here?

[00:23:55] Filip Popovic: Steve, it’s one and the same message, by the way, to both audiences—no hidden agenda.

[00:24:02] Filip Popovic: In partnership, there is no hidden agenda. It’s the BPO that is taking revenue, and it’s us, consumers of BPO support, who are actually taking a huge efficiency and value from the BPO. So, as much as we can be transparent with each other, we both have a goal. We have a budget; the BPO has a revenue target, which is again, a budget.

[00:24:32] Filip Popovic: As much as we can eliminate any hidden agenda and fighting about hidden things, it helps us work very precisely, very openly, and long-term. Once you have a hidden agenda, it’s so clear. I had some partners—ex-partners, ex-vendors—that when I sent out a message, it took them two months to understand what I was saying. But the same partner, when it took five minutes during an RFI or RFP, could learn what I was saying.

[00:25:12] Filip Popovic: So how come it took two months for this, and only five minutes for that? For me, that’s a hidden agenda. If I’m clearly saying, “I need your support,” I’m expecting that the BPO will put the right things on the table. If I ask for efficiency or a cost cut, they tell us, “Okay, we have the resources booked for the next two months. After that, we can do this. But in the meantime, we’ll give you some added value.” Very open, transparent, and on a partner-level relationship.

[00:25:37] Filip Popovic: If nothing is happening, you know until when I’ll keep that vendor—until the contract is expiring or until my legal notification period.

[00:26:05] Filip Popovic: On the other side, if the vendor is not giving us a clear answer, if the BPO doesn’t tell us, “This is impossible at this moment,” then we know where we stand. It’s not an answer to say, “Impossible,” and then add, “But we can do this or that.” That’s proper communication.

[00:26:29] Filip Popovic: So, I really encourage everyone in the audience to eliminate any hidden agenda and be very transparent because we are grown-ups. The BPO needs revenue; we need support. Let us work together around a common goal, long-term partnership. It’s easier and more convenient to work long-term, right?

[00:26:53] Steve MacDonald: Oh, absolutely. I’m thinking in my mind, right? Open, honest, transparent, working together, long-term partnership. You just described what most marriages should be, right? You just described the key essence, the elements of a working relationship, a partnership. Valuing each other.

[00:27:16] Steve MacDonald: And that doesn’t happen when there’s hidden agendas, when we’re not saying things, when we’re working behind the scenes with different motivations. That’s what I’m taking away—the importance of the partnership and how to make a true partnership work, valuing each side. I’ve heard over and over again, you valuing the contributions of the BPO partner.

[00:27:42] Steve MacDonald: I think a partnership has to start with that—each side valuing the other. If there isn’t value that we’re seeing there on more levels than just cost savings or things like that, you’ve talked about many, many different layers of value that have to go both ways. And that’s what I’m taking away from today.

[00:28:00] Filip Popovic: As you mentioned, it’s very similar to marriage. Yeah, actually, it’s very similar to any relationship, in fact. Valuing each other, being open and transparent—it’s just helping. It’s the only way.

[00:28:20] Filip Popovic: For the record, it is possible. I’m not imagining this. We work this way, and we enable this. We work this way with our vendors, and it’s not only me—my entire team works this way with our vendors. It’s possible. It’s happening. It’s not science fiction, it’s reality. Believe that.

[00:28:30] Steve MacDonald: I’m a big believer. We’ve spent many hours talking, and I love every moment of it. I think we should probably do a series of these, right? So here’s what I’d love to ask, though.

[00:28:40] Steve MacDonald: I know people are going to have questions. Would it be appropriate if I gave out a link to your LinkedIn profile so that people could reach out if they had questions they wanted to ask you?

[00:28:49] Filip Popovic: Yeah, that’s actually a massive benefit to myself. I love being connected with people. I love exchanging ideas and thinking with people around, because every question and every answer is just like mutual benefits. So I do appreciate anyone reaching out and being connected with me, because I believe networking is a gold support to everyone. I do believe that. So thanks a lot for that.

[00:29:18] Steve MacDonald: Well, good, good. Here’s the last thing I’d like to say: thank you.

[00:29:22] Steve MacDonald: And specifically for what? Well, the mission of this podcast is to bring together different insights, different perspectives from leaders all over the industry. We don’t talk to our peers enough. We don’t learn from our peers enough. The mission of this podcast is to bring that together, and if we can do it, and we can do it well, that’s like the saying, “the rising tide that lifts all boats.”

[00:29:46] Steve MacDonald: And I think you significantly contributed to the rising tide today. So I just wanted to say thank you.

[00:29:53] Filip Popovic: Thanks. Thanks for the invitation, and I’m happy to join you again when you have an interesting topic to discuss. Of course, looking forward.