Contact Center Leaders: Stop Celebrating False Conclusions

Transcript

Justin Robbins Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Steve MacDonald: Welcome, everyone, to the Contact Center Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host, and today I guarantee we’re going to have some really interesting conversation with Justin Robbins. Now, Justin Robbins has a huge contact center background. In fact, you started out at age 13. We won’t get into the child labor laws and issues that maybe go along with that. But you’ve got your DNA in contact centers and operations. And I’ll let you explain a little bit more about that. You’ve actually written all kinds of courses that have been used by over half of the Fortune 500. You’ve authored lots of research studies. You’ve got the analytical side down. Also, though, you’re a certified professional barbecue judge.

[00:00:43] Steve MacDonald: You’re a jazz percussionist and singer. You’ve got this incredible balance of creative and kind of right- and left-brain thinking that I think is going to serve not only you well in your career but us today in our conversation. Here’s what I’d love to do.

[00:00:57] Steve MacDonald: If there’s a way to expand upon that, without taking up all of our time, a short bit, maybe on the color commentary on your experience before we get started, that would be great.

[00:01:07] Justin Robbins: Yeah, I think first off, Steve, it’s really good to be here. I’ve loved watching some of the other episodes that you’ve done, so I’ve been looking forward to this conversation with you. I think, to the point of balance, that is certainly me overcompensating from being told by too many teachers and mentors and others that it’s like too far down the path of being a right brain. And so I’ve worked really, really hard, I think, to try to build that left brain, because I do think balance is important for all of us.

[00:01:23] Justin Robbins: Even to the point of my background, one of the things that was interesting for me early on is I, like probably every single other person who’s been on this podcast or watches this podcast, at no point vision-boarded a future in the contact center. That wasn’t in the strategic plan.

[00:01:47] Justin Robbins: It wasn’t there and I found myself there, and I found myself falling in love with it. It was during my time at Hershey that I knew, from an operations standpoint, this has been meaningful for me. I’ve learned a lot, and I started to realize what happened when I was connecting with others who were going through things that I had either gone through or was going through myself.

[00:02:12] Justin Robbins: Through that experience, I just started sharing what I was learning, sharing what I was experiencing, running my contact center, and building programs. That led to me moving into a role that was more training and consulting and building programs for other organizations. How do we scale excellence?

[00:02:29] Justin Robbins: That is the question that I asked myself a lot during that phase of my career. And it eventually just got to this point where I spent a lot of time in operations. I had spent a lot of time as a consultant. And then I just started asking questions around how technology companies are thinking and building solutions.

[00:02:46] Justin Robbins: So, I spent the last few years of my career learning that as well. It’s really important for me to feel that I’m doing everything I can to constantly be a student of contact centers, of customer experience, and to be curious about how organizations are building, creating, thinking, and navigating all of the challenges of today.

[00:03:00] Justin Robbins: So, when I think about why I have done what I’ve done and why I am excited about what I do next, it’s all about just a massive curiosity for our industry and a genuine desire to have as much of a well-rounded perspective as I can for when I approach work and when I help others approach their work.

[00:03:25] Steve MacDonald: Well, we’re going to let you start doing that right now. So, this idea of “stop celebrating false conclusions,” right? I want to start right there because I think we’re always looking at and making decisions based on the data or the recommendations that are coming in around us—the things that we see, the trend lines, everything. And the idea that we’re making false conclusions and making decisions based on that—if we could just start there, give us an example of what you’re talking about and why this is so important.

[00:04:02] Justin Robbins: Here’s the resource that rocked my world on this. It was actually a talk by Simon Sinek based off of one of his books, The Infinite Game, and in the talk and in his book—and there was actually a book that was written before that called Finite and Infinite Games—he says in life, there are two types of games that are always at play: finite games, where there are clear rules, there’s a winner and a loser, and the point of the game is for the game to end; and infinite games, where the rules are always changing, the point of the game is to perpetuate the game, and there is no winner or loser.

[00:04:22] Justin Robbins: If we think about what we do in contact centers and the things we measure in terms of success, we’re playing an infinite game. One of the examples that I give to your question is around quality assurance. I often would struggle—and I still today talk with leaders who struggle—with agents who are high performers.

[00:04:43] Justin Robbins: “Hey, Steve always gets a hundred. How do I continue to evolve and challenge Steve? For Steve, how does Steve remain interested in the program?” Because if I get a hundred percent, what does that tell me? I’ve succeeded. I’ve won the game. To the point of a false conclusion, I’ve arrived at this idea that I’ve done it, figured it out. But that’s not the case.

[00:05:02] Justin Robbins: The next interaction, the score resets. The game continues. It’s that type of misalignment with how we measure success, how we talk about and focus on performance improvement, that’s causing us to feel like things are really good when, in a lot of cases, they’re not. Or even if they’re good right now, that is no insurance policy of it being good today, tomorrow, or anytime in the future.

[00:05:41] Steve MacDonald: So I want to play the game. Is this an example? So, we’re looked upon as cost centers more than value centers, right? That’s a perception we want to break. I want to get into that. But if we’re looked upon as cost centers, then we’re measured on how we reduce costs. Therefore, our key KPIs are things like bringing down average handle time, right?

[00:06:04] Steve MacDonald: How do we spend less time with the customers to save costs? Where the infinite game is, how do we create a customer experience that creates those NPS scores, creates the loyalty, and creates the repurchase, and creates all the wonderful things that come out of that? But when the board’s looking at one of the biggest cost centers in the business, they’re looking at KPIs that are reinforcing the false conclusions of what we think we should be doing.

[00:06:31] Steve MacDonald: Is that an example? I just wanted to, like, jump in and play a part of the game. I don’t.

[00:06:35] Justin Robbins: Yeah, it can be.So, there’s two things I want to say on that front. One, using cost as how we quantify success or not certainly is the case because it’s easy for us to see, it’s easy for us to measure, and it’s easy to look at in a single interaction, right? To say that, hey, in that interaction, this was the cost to the business.

[00:06:54] Justin Robbins: But it certainly loses sight of all of the other impacts that future interactions could have. Even niching a little bit further here—customer lifetime value. As an example, I may look at customer lifetime value through the lens of, “What does Steve spend with my business?” But I may not have any insight into the fact that maybe Steve actually doesn’t spend a lot with me, but he’s a very strong influencer with a segment of customers who do spend a lot with me.

[00:07:20] Justin Robbins: Right. So, there’s all of these nuances that, when you play from a finite perspective, it can be really complicated. I think the bigger question, though, is: Why does that cost center paradigm exist in the first place?

[00:07:34] Justin Robbins: Why does the contact center have that reputation? Why do organizations continue to think that way? And to really understand that, we’ve got to recognize and accept two things. One, to my earlier statement, numbers are really easy to see when we think about costs, like getting to that.

[00:07:52] Justin Robbins: We have reports already built for that. A lot of those variables are easy to find. So, of course, we would think about it in that context. But the second piece is, this is the origin story of the contact center. Contact centers were first put into play because it was recognized that when we pull resources together, we’re more efficient.

[00:08:12] Justin Robbins: And I think that there’s a lot that needs to happen for us to shift from our, maybe, origins—both from understanding the value that we can create, but also then shaking up some of the metrics that we’re using to quantify success.

[00:08:26] Steve MacDonald: How do we get out of this paradigm? If you truly looked at this—and these are words that you’ve used—the business of the business, and use that as the lens to make change, to shift the paradigm, what are you talking about when you’re talking about the business of the business and using that as the way to break this paradigm?

[00:08:49] Justin Robbins: When I use that phrase, I’m usually approaching it from two different perspectives. The first is recognizing that the job of a contact center isn’t to be a contact center. There’s something larger at play, and it’s really easy for many of the contact center leaders that I’ve met and worked with—and frankly, at points in my career, the contact center leader that I’ve been—it’s really easy to have this tunnel vision on what matters to your team.

[00:09:09] Justin Robbins: What might matter to your team is reducing escalations. What might matter to your team is accurately providing information to new customers. What might matter to your team is trying to do recovery for people who want to cancel. That’s the transactional, surface level. I see it there. I think about it. I hear it all day, every day, and it may or may not have anything to do with the broader economic engine of the business.

[00:10:00] Justin Robbins: So, when I say understanding the business of the business from the contact center, the first part of that is: How well do you step outside of your day-to-day and your environment as you see it, and understand how other leaders throughout your organization are setting objectives, are being measured for their success, and ultimately how decisions are being made for your organization at an executive or at a board level?

[00:10:21] Justin Robbins: How well do you intentionally broaden your perspective on what matters most outside of the contact center? That’s part one of understanding the business of the business. Once you do that—and only once you do that—then are you in the role to be able to say, “What are all of the parallels to how what we do can better inform my peers or other stakeholders in the organization based off of what I now know matters to them, is driving their decision-making, is driving their key performance indicators, and how can I proactively own and deliver that insight to them?”

[00:11:04] Justin Robbins: That, to me, is the magic of the business of the business. It’s: Am I intentionally getting perspective from outside of my four walls? And then, am I proactively and intentionally connecting the dots for others to say, “Hey, Steve, I know that this is something that’s really important to you this quarter. Here’s some insight that I was able to get access to.” Because guess what?

[00:11:21] Justin Robbins: Steve probably doesn’t know that you have that level of insight or data or intel for him.

[00:11:28] Steve MacDonald: And that intel crosses every department in the organization.

[00:11:32] Justin Robbins: Every department.

[00:11:33] Steve MacDonald: Yeah. So, to me, that’s the key, right? Leaders in the organization don’t look at the contact center as a value center that contributes significantly because we’re having most of the conversations with the customer. Guess what?

[00:11:50] Steve MacDonald: The voice of the customer is the highest voice of authority in any business, right? So, if we’re not listening to the customer and we’re not translating that for all those teams—those high-performance teams in every single department—so that they can perform better, then that is a misuse. That’s a misjustice of the contact center.

[00:12:10] Justin Robbins: I want to be really, really clear about why this is kind of a pervasive problem for organizations. And I think, as contact center leaders, it’s important for us to just recognize this and maybe remind ourselves on a regular basis.

[00:12:23] Justin Robbins: First off, people don’t know what they don’t know. That goes for you, and that goes for every single counterpart that you have throughout your organization. They don’t know. They don’t live in your environment every day. Unless you’ve told them, they probably don’t know what the number one contact driver is. Unless you’ve shown them, they probably don’t know what you pay attention to on a daily basis.

[00:12:44] Justin Robbins: They don’t know it is part one. Second, we just have to recognize that if they don’t know what they don’t know, we, as humans, are also really, really good at making assumptions and filling in the blanks for what we don’t know.

[00:12:58] Justin Robbins: So, throughout the organization—right, wrong, or indifferent—people have all sorts of opinions and thoughts on what the contact center is or isn’t, knows or doesn’t know. And those assumptions are being based off of the inputs that any single one of us gets. Those inputs can be something that I heard from somebody in a meeting, or it can be the thing that a leader is proactively communicating to me.

[00:13:23] Justin Robbins: Then I think about the other part. If we remember that people don’t know what they don’t know, and they’re making their assumption based off of the sources that are available to them, how can you be a driver of a positive change for both in helping them better know the things they should know, and being an input that’s helping them see the value that the contact center can provide to their business?

[00:13:45] Steve MacDonald: Let me ask if this is a roadblock in bringing the contact center and the rest of the organization together so everybody can benefit. Typically, contact center leaders come up through the ranks, even from an agent to maybe a QA manager, training, and they’re not classically trained or experienced in the business that you talked about. So, asking for them to understand the business of the business where they’ve not had that experience, they’ve not been trained in that experience— is that a chasm? We spend a lot of time talking about how we train agents. Should we be equally talking about how we, as leaders in our organization, should be training our contact center leaders?

[00:14:37] Justin Robbins: Yes, is my answer to all of that. Look, things I’ll touch on here. One, contact center supervisors—functional level leaders—do feel like a bit of a lost demographic to me in terms of a lot of enablement and training and support. A lot are kind of left to figure it out, unfortunately. The second part, in terms of this idea of do they come up through the ranks, or what does that look like?

[00:15:09] Justin Robbins: There’s really three scenarios, and in most scenarios, there’s just a real downside. The first scenario is that they do come up through the ranks, and they don’t have that formal training, and so they lead by whatever naturally manifests inside of them.

[00:15:26] Justin Robbins: The second thing that I observe is organizations who bring in leaders who they let at other contact centers. And they’re like, “Hey, they were a contact center leader, so they’re clearly going to be successful here.” But the reality is most contact centers struggle to articulate their value outside of the contact center. Still doesn’t solve the problem.

[00:15:45] Justin Robbins: So then the third approach that organizations take is, “Well, I know, I know. We need somebody who knows the business of the business.” And so they get somebody who’s a really strong performer in another part of the organization. And you know what they say, “Steve, today’s the day that you begin leading our contact center.”

[00:16:08] Steve MacDonald: Right, right.

[00:16:09] Justin Robbins: Steve has no idea.

[00:16:12] Steve MacDonald: I’ve interviewed those people on this podcast. They were like, “And all of a sudden, I’m running the contact center.”

[00:16:19] Justin Robbins: So the challenge, I think, is a universal one. And I hear a lot that people don’t actually use this word, but the way that they describe their time in the contact center is they feel like it’s this thing they’ve fallen into, and they need to claw their way out of it.

[00:16:34] Justin Robbins: That’s why I use the chasm term. The term is like, for frontline associates, for leaders, for people who inherit—it’s like, “Why me? Why me? And what can I do to get out of here?” But to all of the things that we’ve talked about up to this point, in terms of the intelligence that exists there, the opportunity for there to be so much intersection and overlap and service to other departments in the organization, actually primes the contact center. I don’t care what level you’re at in a contact center. It enables anyone who’s in the contact center for that time to be a catalyst into really, really cool futures in their career, if they position that time in the right way.

[00:17:17] Steve MacDonald: So here’s the conclusion that I want to either debunk or validate. But everything that I’m hearing here is that the perception of contact centers being cost centers, and that from the board level on down, how they’re evaluated—that’s setting the rules of the game, right? To their beginning, the finite game has a finite set of rules, and there’s a conclusion to it, right? And that seems to be the way that the rules are set for contact centers, and those rules are set above the contact center itself. So, if there’s any major change, fundamentally a paradigm shift, that’s going to have to happen. If I were you as a consultant, I would be starting with the executive management first. You guys would set the rules wrong. Good idea? Bad idea? What do you think?

[00:18:12] Justin Robbins: All right, for me, as an independent voice in a lot of this, I try to do both, right? I try to resource operations leaders really well. But the other thing that I’m pretty clear about, whether it’s on an engagement or even if I’m giving a talk or something like this, is like, without having an executive who can sponsor and advocate for and champion these initiatives, it’s really hard. I think for me, it has to be dual-threaded—focused on the operations leader, but also the executive team. Because if the executive team doesn’t see the value in it, it doesn’t matter.

[00:18:49] Justin Robbins: I think the other kind of part to this, in terms of where does change actually begin—for me, if I’m an operations leader and I don’t have a consultant or an executive or somebody who’s in that ear, the best way that I can be relevant is to speak the language they’re already speaking. Instead of trying to bring them into the contact center, it’s like, “Hey, here’s what you need to understand about HT and CSAT and QA and NPS and WEM,” and like, stop. What do they care about? Okay, so if you know that right now what they really care about is reducing churn in your customer base, or trying to drive incremental innovations at stores, like, whatever it would be.

[00:19:42] Justin Robbins: How can you be relevant to them? How can you articulate the impact of what you’re doing has on them? Most of the senior executives that I talked to, that are kind of like me on the whole CX thing right now, here’s what they’re telling me. Steve is, look, I’ve had people who tell me that, “Hey, we’re going to do this improvement, and it’s going to improve customer satisfaction by this,” or, “It’s going to increase employee engagement by this,” or, “It’s going to do this to our net promoter score.” All of these things. I think this is what it’s going to do. But then when I look, and it’s like, “Okay, well, how has this increased revenue or reduced cost?” And suddenly it’s like, “Well… well, well, well, no, well, what?”

[00:20:27] Justin Robbins: No, no. But look, look at the chart. Look at the chart. It’s like many leaders aren’t able to actually articulate how these vanity metrics are impacting things that have material effects on the business. The perception is not changing because it’s like, “Look, it’s a lot easier for me as an executive to see how expensive it was to serve a customer, and did that customer generate revenue for me or not?”

[00:20:58] Justin Robbins: That’s why cost per contact, that’s why revenue per customer—like, that’s why those things matter. Cause it’s easy for me to see the dollars and cents of it. If I am a contact center leader and I’m not clearly connecting all of those other things to dollars and cents, it’s going to be really, really hard to shift that mentality.

[00:21:15] Steve MacDonald: So how do we do that? Because you’re right, as executives, we look at profit and loss. We look at quotas. We look at all these things that are all traveling towards, “How are we doing this quarter? How are we doing next quarter?” If we’re public companies, we’re rewarded.

[00:21:31] Steve MacDonald: We have to keep showing that, right? So, we as organizations are business revenue, ROI, profit-driven. That’s the way we’re going to be. I don’t think that’s going to change. That’s probably not a paradigm shift that we’re going to want to fight, right?

[00:21:48] Justin Robbins: We’re all going to be charities now.

[00:21:50] Steve MacDonald: That’s right. Dot org. Dot org. Dot org. So, knowing that that’s the world business works in, right? And knowing that there’s a limited amount that can affect change if there’s not a sponsor, if there’s not a hero for what we’re trying to do up above us, do we just need to get more metric-driven?

[00:22:13] Steve MacDonald: There’s a lot of metrics that do support what we’re doing, right? There’s a lot of things that we can say, “Hey, we help product development not go down a path,” right? Like, how much sunk costs are we saving because we didn’t go down that path? There is a business case to be made. Do we just need to make more business cases? 

[00:22:36] Justin Robbins: I’m so glad you asked, Steve. This is the world that I’ve been living in, especially in recent months, as I’ve really been trying to understand the enterprise-wide customer experience problem. Where is it falling short? Where is it succeeding? And what I’ve found in terms of where it falls short most often, and what organizations need to do differently to break the paradigm, get more mindshare inside of the business, and ultimately drive more change, is in a matter of focusing on more things. It’s figuring out where the few things that, if focused on, have exponential impact on the business, right? The problem is not a lack of data, not a lack of stakeholders who are interested in improving customer experience.

[00:23:17] Justin Robbins: It’s, where do we focus? Where do we focus that, if focused there, has maximum impact? The metric, the idea that I’ve really landed on and seen prove out with organizations is something that I’ve called value force multipliers. Value force multipliers, for me, they’re the high-impact things that create a kind of outsized value for the business, for the customers.

[00:23:41] Justin Robbins: Think of it as the 20 percent that, if done, affect 80 percent of results. Basic Pareto principle. I’ll give you an example of that, and then we can—ask away whatever you want there. But I was talking to a buddy of mine, and he runs customer and technical support for a drone manufacturer.

[00:24:01] Justin Robbins: He was saying to me, “Justin, do you have any idea of the number one reason why people contact our business?” I was like, “I don’t know, like flyaway drones?” It’s like people get these things up, up, and away they go. He said, “Do you know what my obligation is to that customer when they call me with a flyaway drone?”

[00:24:23] Justin Robbins: So, what’s your obligation? He said, “Too bad. So sad. Do you want to buy a new one?” Did they want to buy a new one? No, of course they didn’t want to buy a new one. But this is what his reps were doing. “I apologize that the wind took your drone away and that you can’t locate it. I can offer you a discount. Here’s a 10 percent coupon,” right? It’s like, that’s the strategy. He was intimately familiar with the flyaway drone problem, and all day, every day, his agents were focused on one of two things: How do we spend as little time as possible on the phone with flyaway drone customers? Because in most cases, they’re not going to turn into additional revenue.

[00:25:00] Justin Robbins: For the few that will, can we capture the sale right then and there? That’s it. He got invited to a meeting that was around the consumable sales numbers. Consumables are things like batteries, replacement blades, things like that. A cross-functional group got together to just talk about why numbers weren’t where they had thought they would be.

[00:25:19] Justin Robbins: He’s a bit of a smart aleck, and he said, “It’s because nobody owns these things long enough to need any of that stuff.” People around the room were like, “What are you talking about?” Everybody else in the contact center had no idea. The number one reason why people called was flyaway drones. And so, in this unrelated meeting, the flyaway drone topic gets to be the point of conversation.

[00:25:41] Justin Robbins: And they’re asking, well, what would it mean for us to tackle flyaway drones? Can we change packaging? Can we change instructions? Like, how do we make this easier? And by pulling the right group of cross-functional people that could go after this targeted, specific pain point—flyaway drones—they took data.

[00:26:00] Justin Robbins: They said, how do we turn this into action? And how do we drive business impact? Once they changed packaging and some other things, over the course of about six months, they started to see a drop. Ultimately, it became about a 50 percent reduction in flyaway drone calls. Number one, that reduction alone was a great savings to the business.

[00:26:19] Justin Robbins: But the bi-directional shift that happened is now that people were able to fly their drones, they were posting videos on social media. Word-of-mouth marketing was driving more business for them. Customers were buying additional products, and consumables were lifting. That’s a great example of a value force multiplier because here was taking a problem that existed in one part of the business that was insulated.

[00:26:41] Justin Robbins: Nobody else knew that it existed. More importantly, nobody else realized all of the impact that it could have beyond the contact center if addressed. And so value force multipliers are about identifying those key pain points, getting to the root cause, figuring out low-effort, high-impact [00:27:00] types of efforts.

[00:27:00] Justin Robbins: Do we have the right people together? And then can we communicate how this is actually driving revenue growth, cost savings, customer loyalty, right? The things that are “business of the business” kind of metrics.

[00:27:13] Steve MacDonald: I love it. Here’s what I love about that. We remember things 22 times more when told to us in the form of a story, right? And so you connected the whole story there, right? The story wasn’t how the contact center tries to get off the phone really quickly or do an immediate sale because that’s the only opportunity. You flipped that into a massive business opportunity. So now I want to know, what else does the contact center know? Now I want to know, where else are there hidden gems that should be helping us drive our business? I’m looking at them as a resource of value, not a necessary evil that we need to have.

[00:27:53] Steve MacDonald: Obviously, we’re going to have people that call in with questions or problems, so we have to have that, right? It’s not a “have to have,” it’’s a must-have for a whole different reason.

[00:28:04] Justin Robbins: It’s a level of strategic insight. And the stuff that, if tapped into, really can provide competitive advantage for organizations. It’s just a matter of being able to focus—not adding more, but what are the things that you can cull down to and say, “Hey, if we go after today, let’s just focus on flyaway drones today.”

[00:28:26] Justin Robbins: And if we focus on flyaway drones today, what would be the impact tomorrow? And then once we’ve done that, what’s the next thing? And then the next thing? And then the next thing?

[00:28:35] Steve MacDonald: And both sides want to explore that next thing because you don’t always know what the next thing is unless you’re coming together, right? And you’re talking and you’re sharing.

[00:28:45] Justin Robbins: It’s driving mutual benefit. Even last night, I was having a conversation with an executive, and they were saying, like, the turf wars between departments have always existed. But in today’s kind of climate, where more and more overlap is happening between contact centers or marketing or operations or sales, there’s more and more of these conversations. 

[00:29:20] Justin Robbins: The exact word that we used last night is it feels like it’s an all-out war zone inside of this organization as different departments are just conflicting over executive alignment around what teams are being incentivized on or being held accountable for achieving. And it’s like, “Steve does this, and he’s being incentivized for this behavior. He’s always been incentivized for that behavior. But now we actually see the negative consequence that drives two departments later.”

[00:29:40] Justin Robbins: It’s creating a lot of uncomfortable conversations, and candidly, that excites me because through discomfort, I believe that real growth and change can happen. And so I get excited when I hear that—not because I want anyone to have to have those very uncomfortable, very volatile conversations, right? None of us want to be in those. But seeing that, I believe on the back end, we’re going to come into a period of really cool transformation and growth for organizations. That gets me really excited.

[00:30:06] Steve MacDonald: Well, this whole conversation gets me excited. I’ve got one last question with what I’m hoping is a 30-second answer. Because we’ve talked about so much, if there was one thing that you wanted the audience of this episode to take away, what would it be? The one most important thing. What would that be?

[00:30:26] Justin Robbins: It would be two things. The first would be: be massively curious. Be massively curious about what your customers care about. Be massively curious about what matters most to your business. Be massively curious about the impact that you could have in the future that you’re not having today. Then the second would be: be an owner in collaborating and sharing with other departments. Don’t wait for someone to come to you and ask for your opinion. Be the one to proactively put yourself out there. I think if you’re curious and willing to proactively put yourself out there, you’ll be incredibly influential in the weeks and years to come.

[00:31:00] Steve MacDonald: I love it, and I know people are going to have additional questions because this is just the kind of conversation that spurs more questions. I know I have about 10 more, but would it be appropriate if we gave out a link to your LinkedIn profile so people could reach out to you if they had questions?

[00:31:15] Justin Robbins: I would love that, and it’s really easy to get a hold of me. You get on LinkedIn. I have my email and cell phone on there too, so it’s really easy.

[00:31:22] Steve MacDonald: Fantastic. Well, Justin, thank you so much for such a mind-provoking conversation. That’s what this podcast is about. That’s what your mission, your consultancy, is all about, right? If we can help people think differently and operate differently and be more successful, then mission accomplished. But that’s an infinite game.

[00:31:44] Justin Robbins: I love it.

[00:31:45] Justin Robbins: Thank you.

[00:31:46] Steve MacDonald: Thanks for coming on today, Justin. I appreciate it.

[00:31:48] Justin Robbins: Yeah. Thank you so much for the time today.