Why Your Board Should Invest in Your Contact Center

Transcript

[00:00:00] Steve MacDonald: Welcome everyone to the Contact Center Perspectives podcast. I’m Steve MacDonald, your host. We have a super interesting guest today, Anne-Sophie Engert. Anne, you are the Head of Customer Care and Conversion at Sonova Marketing. You’ve worked with companies that have grown from, I believe, being the third employee at HelloFresh to their current massive scale.

[00:00:24] Steve MacDonald: Today, you’ll discuss how to persuade your board to invest in the contact center and view it as a center of ROI and significant business growth. But before we dive into that, could you expand a bit more on your background?

[00:00:45] Anne-Sophie Engertf: Thank you very much, Steve. It’s a pleasure to be here. I’m delighted to discuss my personal experiences with customer service entities. As mentioned, my background includes building customer service teams for several companies, focusing on customer experience, relations, and service strategy.

[00:01:11] Anne-Sophie Engert: My journey includes building the customer service entity at HelloFresh, working over 10 years with Textile, known for JustFab and Fabletics, and the joint venture with Rihanna, Savage X Fenty. I’ve also gained insights from customer care in banking and now lead the customer care and conversion team at Sonova Marketing.

[00:01:42] Anne-Sophie Engert: As you mentioned, customer care or service entities are typically seen as cost centers rather than revenue generators unless they drive upsells or direct sales. It’s challenging to argue for investment without measurable ROI.

[00:02:08] Anne-Sophie Engert: The question is, what metrics can you use to measure customer satisfaction, experience, and happiness? While we have CSAT, Net Promoter Scores, and other satisfaction metrics, how do you assign a price tag to the actual satisfaction and happiness of a customer or member?

[00:02:32] Steve MacDonald: Great. I’d love to start by getting your perspective on why the contact center is so crucial and why it often needs more investment. We generally make investments with the expectation of a greater return.

[00:02:51] Steve MacDonald: Investing is about putting a dollar in and making three dollars out. So, why should boards be investing more in their contact centers?

[00:03:02] Anne-Sophie Engert: Customer service departments, when not involved in upselling or direct sales, are often seen as cost centers. They don’t provide a directly measurable return on investment, which can make it challenging to justify further investment.

[00:03:14] Anne-Sophie Engert: While there are metrics like customer satisfaction scores, net promoter scores, and repeat orders, these don’t always translate directly into financial terms. It’s challenging to quantify the value of a happy customer in monetary terms, which complicates investment decisions.

[00:03:43] Anne-Sophie Engert: Metrics such as average order values and referral rates do exist, but they often lack the clarity of direct financial metrics like those seen in marketing. This lack of clear, measurable impact makes it harder to justify spending on customer service departments.

[00:04:00] Anne-Sophie Engert: Investment in customer service involves training, tools, strategy, and more. Compared to marketing, which has clear spend and ROI metrics, customer service often struggles to show immediate, quantifiable returns, leading to underinvestment.

[00:04:40] Anne-Sophie Engert:  The challenge lies in quantifying the worth of a happy customer, especially when these departments aren’t generating direct sales. This makes it difficult to argue for increased investment in areas like communication strategy, in-house vs. outsourced teams, and site visits.

[00:04:58] Steve MacDonald: So, every organization should have a target of around 30 to 40 percent of new revenue this year coming from existing customers and the contact center is the number one place where we talk to our customers when they have questions. We have opportunities to introduce new products or upsell opportunities.

[00:05:19] Steve MacDonald:  Just thinking about the contact center as an area responsible for sales and revenue, including cross-sells, upsells, and new revenue. If we discuss sourcing new revenue, with 30-40% coming from existing customers, you’ll immediately catch the board’s attention.

[00:05:38] Steve MacDonald: You’ll get the C-suite to ask, “How do you track that?” If sales are crucial, how do you report these revenue numbers? How do you attribute them to the contact center and the agents, and what you’re training them to do?

[00:05:57] Anne-Sophie Engert: You made a very good point. The customer service department is, as you said, the front line—it’s the ear and eye of the company to the customer. Every piece of feedback you get, whether about products, processes, or service, comes from the customer.

[00:06:19] Anne-Sophie Engert:  If you care about the brand perception of the product you’re selling, you need to understand your customers’ needs, demands, complaints, and wishes. Areas for improvement usually come from listening to your customers. Many product initiatives have originated from the department and agents directly.

[00:06:47] Anne-Sophie Engert: As you mentioned, competition is fierce. If your product isn’t unique, customers can shop elsewhere. For example, large e-commerce companies offer a choice to shop around, but customers return due to superior service.

[00:07:12] Anne-Sophie Engert: If it’s not the product and you can get it elsewhere, the key question is why customers return. As you mentioned, why is there increased revenue and repeat orders? Typically, it’s due to service because people often say, “It’s so easy to shop here, and whenever I have an issue, the service is so great that I’m happy to pay a bit more for that.” This is where you can stand out from the competition—by having the talent, understanding your product, and offering the best possible service to your customers.

[00:08:03] Anne-Sophie Engert: To your question of how you want to ensure that this department and entity can provide that, this comes with focusing on what kind of agents you want to have in your department to serve your customers.

[00:08:26] Anne-Sophie Engert: For my background, it helps to have a certain relation to the product. If you sell shoes and handbags, it might make sense to have a common understanding as the customer that this is something you can never have enough of, or if you sell athletic wear, it might make sense to have agents supporting customers with their queries or needs or whatever it is if they understand that there is a different demand on a bra if you do yoga over going for a run.

[00:08:56] Anne-Sophie Engert: So,  to have a general interest in the product you sell or the service you offer is the first requirement. Then, it depends really on what your audience is, and where your customer is located. This can be culturally different. It can be from the age. It can be for many different reasons.

[00:09:17] Anne-Sophie Engert: It makes sense to think about where you want to position on the market. If you want to have an in-house team, if you want to outsource, or if there’s something you want to bring artificial intelligence or bot service in. I think those are critical strategic decisions to pay attention to because not all customers and audiences are open to having artificial support.

[00:09:43] Anne-Sophie Engert: It depends on the age group. Currently, our customers are 55 years and older, which requires a different approach to service. Different channels and communication methods are needed. For example, a customer seeking order tracking might be satisfied with a bot providing the tracking number, but if they have an unknown charge on their bank account, they will likely prefer speaking to a human who can clarify the issue, help de-escalate the situation, and address their concerns effectively.

[00:10:34] Anne-Sophie Engert: Also, there is a specific in your business model. If you just provide service or just sell products, it’s different than coming in with a membership model or a subscription. As we said in the beginning, my background is in companies that conquer the markets with a membership or subscription models.

[00:10:54] Anne-Sophie Engert: For the European customers, when we started this 15 years ago in HelloFresh, or then later in my experience at textile with these brands, just Fab, Fabletics, and Savage X Fenty by Rihanna, that was new to European customers. They knew subscription from their gym membership and from their newspaper, but beyond that, it was something new.

[00:11:18] Anne-Sophie Engert: Customers want to know what are the perks and benefits. What does that make unique for me? Do I have to come in and purchase as a repeated member where I’m being charged where there is more obligations? What is in for me? I think it’s extra important to engage, to go the extra mile, and to deliver above and beyond than what is expected.

[00:11:47] Anne-Sophie Engert: You want these customers to come back. If you shop at any e-commerce store and the product is nice, you may come back, but if it’s a kind of membership or subscription where you ask the member to repeatedly come back, then you want them to feel special. You want them to feel that there is a benefit for them.

[00:12:09] Anne-Sophie Engert: There is an advantage over those who are not members and those who are not signing up for a subscription. Some early access, special service, or premium service. Have their things delivered earlier, special and exclusive products. Provide them with a service they feel is worth being this repeat member.

[00:12:31] Anne-Sophie Engert: I think coming in with that approach gives you way more opportunity in the training to really educate your agents on why it’s important to engage, why it’s this extra minute they might take, and I’m happy to deep dive on that a little bit more from my current role at Sonova, where, as I said, it’s a different audience. 

[00:12:55] Anne-Sophie Engert: You can say the conversion part is important as you want to talk to people and have high conversion rates at the end of the day as your KPI. But there are different ways to approach and I’m happy to discuss this a little more.

[00:13:12] Steve MacDonald: There’s so much you said that was important. I want to revisit a few minutes ago because you laid out the argument that most companies face significant competition.

[00:13:23] Steve MacDonald:  In fact, most companies today have between 20 and 25 different competitors. The most important differentiation isn’t always your product. While the Kardashian brand provides a significant point of difference, most companies sell products and services available in multiple places.

[00:13:47] Steve MacDonald: You mentioned something I want to explore further: that customer care, customer support, and the overall customer experience are the key differentiators that make customers want to return. There are many studies supporting this view.

[00:14:09] Steve MacDonald: If that is the case, then it’s crucial communication to the board and C-suite. Your competitive advantage and source of sustainable growth for the company may not be the products, service, or price, but the customer care you provide. This is the most important differentiator for your company. It is the most important source of sustainable growth and revenue. That was your main point, I believe.

[00:14:41] Anne-Sophie Engert: Just think of it yourself. If you read a review of a product from a random person you’ve never met, on a review platform or underneath the product in some shops, how likely are you to purchase that product?

[00:14:59] Anne-Sophie Engert:  If you see recommendations from a friend or someone you trust, saying that a particular article made a difference and is great, you are much more likely to purchase or try it compared to random recommendations.

[00:15:25] Anne-Sophie Engert: So, having a loyal member is crucial. From the Net Promoter Score, some stay neutral, and then you have, unfortunately, detractors who don’t recommend your product. But you also have customers who are so happy and convinced about your product and, ideally, the service, that they refer it to a friend.

[00:15:52] Anne-Sophie Engert: This makes a significant difference in your willingness to purchase the product. Spending focus and acknowledging that a customer feels valued and recommends you to others is something you cannot make up with any marketing spend.

[00:16:14] Anne-Sophie Engert: It’s important to address loyal customers and ensure they’re happy because the value they provide through referrals is invaluable compared to what marketing departments might achieve.

[00:16:27] Steve MacDonald:  The ROI from internal resources focused on customer care versus the ROI from internal resources focused on marketing is a night-and-day difference.

[00:16:39] Anne-Sophie Engert: Absolutely. Yeah. 

[00:16:41] Steve MacDonald:  That’s a different mentality. There’s a lot of different mentality about how to invest money in marketing to get more awareness, leads, and purchases. So, what you’re saying is that ROI is better spent on customer care. We’re not saying marketing is not important.

[00:16:57] Steve MacDonald: We’re not saying that at all. But there is a perception gap when it comes to investing money. Marketing is one of the largest overhead costs for a business, as is the contact center and customer care. The mentality in marketing is that spending more results in more returns, while the mentality in customer care is to spend less. Are you saying we need to shift this balance?

[00:17:29] Anne-Sophie Engert:  So, understanding all departments and knowing that each department, on its own, has the perception that if it were not doing the job, there would be no product, no customer, nothing.

[00:17:41] Anne-Sophie Engert: Of course, marketing says if we don’t advertise the product and create awareness of it, then why would we need service? While buying says if we don’t buy the product in the first place, there’s no need for a service entity. Logistics says if we don’t ensure there’s stock and accessibility, then there’s no point in continuing the business. Developers say if we don’t provide the option to interact and expose the product or service to the market, there is no business. CRM and data analytics say if we don’t understand the customer journey and behavior and project data on it, then there’s no point in scaling the business.

[00:18:05] Anne-Sophie Engert: From my perspective, if we are not there to serve your customers, explain and respond to questions, solve issues, serve them, and collect their feedback to improve marketing and products, then there is no point in continuing to grow the business.

[00:18:46] Anne-Sophie Engert: Each department claims to be the most important one. But as I’m coming from customer service, I think it’s wrong not to invest in this department, understanding that all the others have their meaning and importance to a business. If you are not addressing the customer and don’t offer a very unique product or service, then your customers are most likely to go somewhere else and purchase there.

[00:19:17] Steve MacDonald:  Every department is a part of the body. You need legs to get to where you want to go, a mouth to help communicate, and a brain to guide all the departments. The brain tells them how they could help out more and become even more important to our bodies and what we’re doing.

[00:19:36] Steve MacDonald:  The contact center is a bit like the brain that brings feedback from the customer because the customer is the highest authority in any company. We need to make the rest of the body and the company’s functioning more important and operate more effectively.

[00:19:58] Steve MacDonald:  I agree with you. You mentioned something before we started recording in a previous conversation that I thought was fantastic. The way you’re thinking about changing the agents, who are the interface point with the clients and customers, and making them more like your customers is insightful.

[00:20:23] Steve MacDonald: So, they have more empathy and understanding. The customer feels like you’re one of us. Tell us a little bit about your thinking on making agents more like your ICP, your ideal customer profile.

[00:20:38] Anne-Sophie Engert:  I’m happy to. First of all, if you listen to the customer service department, they are the ones who can pretty accurately tell you what the customer wants, what is working well, and what needs improvement.

[00:20:53] Anne-Sophie Engert: So, creating room for feedback loops to go back to the department and interact, and having these actual body parts connected is central. This is something I’m trying to implement in every company I’m working in and currently exploring at Sonova. The marketing department and the customer service department need to interact because it can be so fruitful both ways to gain a better understanding and improve from there.

[00:21:25] Anne-Sophie Engert: Regarding having a customer service agent type close to your customer audience, as I mentioned earlier, it makes so much sense to have an understanding of the product, the customer purchases, or the service provided. Bringing in talents with experience from previous jobs or personal experience can make a huge difference. For example, at Sonova, part of the job for an agent involves care aspects. Do they have a question? Do they need general information? Is there something wrong with the hearing aid?

[00:22:10] Anne-Sophie Engert: They have questions about the entire process of identifying their needs. They might have significant hearing loss and start a journey to get a hearing aid or adjust an existing one. Everything related to that is service and care.

[00:22:30] Anne-Sophie Engert: Then, you have this part where it’s the actual conversion, where you have someone coming in, maybe already aware of having an issue. They might be at a stage of their journey where they need a bit more support, and who could provide that better than someone who has experienced these things on their own?

[00:22:57] Anne-Sophie Engert: If you connect this experience, this empathy, this personal story with someone on the other end, who might be struggling and not at the age you expect someone to experience this, but earlier in their life, who has a hard time and connects everything they know about hearing aids and these big machines to the ear, they might not be aware of how seamlessly this can be introduced into their daily life.

[00:23:31] Anne-Sophie Engert: You want someone to take this customer by the hand, not starting the conversation with “This is a sales call. Good morning. This is what you need. Please purchase this product. These are the arguments and reasons why, this is the objection handling,” but to come in with an approach of “I’m here to serve. It’s you on your journey, and I’m just here to provide you with any information you need, anything that is holding you back from improving your life from tomorrow on.”

[00:23:53] Anne-Sophie Engert:  I think rather than saying, “Okay, will you come tomorrow to the hearing, or listening appointment, or will you do it next week,” it’s more about an approach of, “ What do you need? What is holding you back from taking this appointment and maybe improving your life from next week on? What else do you need? Is it information? Is it some more background? Is it a finance thing? Do you need more information on the process? Do you need more information on the device itself?”

[00:24:33] Anne-Sophie Engert: So, taking the customer there and being able, as an agent, to say, “Years back when I went through this on my own, when I did this journey, how it started at the beginning, how people told me and my surroundings, ‘Well, you are having a hearing loss,’ how my wife, my husband, my children, whoever brought the attention that there is something,” I remember back how it was, and I can tell you it’s not a big deal in the stores and takes you through this journey from personal reference and experience.

[00:25:04] Anne-Sophie Engert:  It can be a different story and a different connection and bonding. Just as I said previously, in a job where you have someone purchasing the 30th bag for this year, you want to have somebody there understanding that you can never have too many bags or shoes or leggings and having this connection.

[00:25:27] Anne-Sophie Engert: This is something I think you can only train to a certain level, to a certain degree. When you bring in agents that are very close to the experience of your target group, your audience, your customers, you can serve and provide an empathy you cannot buy. This is something that I’ve experienced makes a whole lot of difference.

[00:25:50] Steve MacDonald: I talked to a lot of folks in customer experience through this podcast, and it is the very first time that anybody has talked about getting someone who’s like who we’re selling to be in our contact centers. It makes perfect sense. It’s like what we all have known forever.

[00:26:12] Steve MacDonald: Word of mouth from our peers, from our friends, from our family. If this is a peer that I’m talking to, I’m going to trust them to the nth degree more. I’m going to feel like I’m not being sold to, but I’m being consulted by someone with real-world experience. I think that’s brilliant. You also talk about establishing a career path for your agents and ensuring they understand how they’re supported, and that this isn’t just a young, entry-level position, but a truly fantastic career opportunity. What’s your thinking on this? 

[00:26:57] Anne-Sophie Engert: I think that providing a learning, growing, and development path is relevant for every job and every role. People want to explore, develop, and continue as learners. Providing that to the agent role, which for some people is something they do while they study or, as we say, in between two jobs, especially in Europe, where there is only a certain number of people who say, “I want to be a call center agent for life.”

[00:27:29] Anne-Sophie Engert: If they do, they want to progress in their career within that job. You want to make sure to attract individuals who stay with you and don’t leave after three months because this is a high challenge in the customer service entity or general call center environment, where high attrition means putting all the effort into training and branding your agents to have valuable conversations with your customers.

[00:28:00] Anne-Sophie Engert: Making sure that you provide them with everything they need to deliver service that is satisfying for the customer and rewarding for the agent is crucial. It’s underestimated how much a customer’s feedback can impact an agent, especially if they know they’ve made someone’s day, resolved an issue, or made an important change.

[00:28:24] Anne-Sophie Engert: It’s like a love language for an agent. If they care about their job, this is what they need to stay motivated. Providing access to the right learning and knowledge—both soft skills like communication and hard skills like tools on the product—is essential. Equipping your agents with everything they need and providing tools that simplify repetitive tasks while allowing them to build relationships with customers is key.

[00:28:44] Anne-Sophie Engert: Equipping your agents with everything they need and providing them with tools that make their lives easier, automating repetitive tasks they use daily, and focusing on allowing them to build relationships with customers is essential. Let them bring empathy and customization to calls without being too strictly bound to procedures.

[00:29:14] Anne-Sophie Engert:  I think you’re halfway there. For the rest, it’s important to understand the role and motivation of the agent. Some people might say they are here for only half a year, in between jobs. They just need to be equipped with everything necessary to do their job, get their bonus, and meet their numbers.

[00:29:34] Anne-Sophie Engert: Then, some plan to stay longer. If you keep them motivated and create a happy environment where they can customize their role to some degree, have fun at work, and enjoy a positive atmosphere, these are the agents you need to invest in. You need to ensure there is a path for learning and development.

[00:29:59] Anne-Sophie Engert: Continuous learning is crucial. It’s not just about providing onboarding, skills training, and a handbook, and then leaving it at that. You must continue to ensure they have the knowledge, tools, and updates on products, campaigns, and everything they need.

[00:30:18] Anne-Sophie Engert: Allow them to develop within the path of an agent. Starting as an agent doesn’t mean remaining in that role forever. There are opportunities to grow into roles such as trainers, senior agents, and team leads in the customer service environment.

[00:30:39] Anne-Sophie Engert:  I think laying that out clearly and explaining in a very transparent way what is needed to reach the next part of their career is essential. This can be a tier setup, a skill matrix, or however you want to implement it. But laying out what is needed, what knowledge, what training to complete, how many conversations to have, and what numbers to achieve to move into the next bracket in their career is essential to have a dedicated team that is motivated to continue to grow and develop.

[00:31:13] Anne-Sophie Engert: Of course, you need to have the resources. You need to have trainers, someone to provide feedback, handle quality assurance and quality management tasks, and conduct feedback sessions, and coaching. You need tools and a learning management system where you can document, provide e-learning courses, and present content in a fun and gamified way.

[00:31:40] Anne-Sophie Engert: Additionally, you need to give agents opportunities to receive feedback from customers. Something that I think is very underestimated is customer surveys and customer satisfaction scores—ways to let agents know how well they are performing, not just through internal measurements, but from the voice of the customer. It makes a big difference to them.

[00:32:06] Steve MacDonald:  I love that. I would love to get your opinion on focusing on agents who want to stay, who want a career path, and who aren’t viewing this as a transition. It takes a lot to train and for them to get up to speed and be operational.

[00:32:27] Steve MacDonald:  Focusing on those who want to stay longer and make a career out of this can be difficult due to perceptions of the trade and other factors. But you also mentioned a mentality and a desired balance when working with outside BPO partners. In other places, they can provide excellent agents, where the culture accepts contact support agents as a career—a role that supports their families and is taken very seriously. Tell me a little bit about that balance and what you meant by that.

[00:33:11] Anne-Sophie Engert:  First of all, as I said, it’s important to know your audience. Who are your customers? Where are they located? What kind of service do you want to provide?

[00:33:20] Anne-Sophie Engert: From there, you know which market you serve, which languages you need to cover, and what the channels should be. I’m a huge fan of outsourcing. My experience with outsourcing partners has been excellent. It helps you scale, ramp up and down, and be more flexible. Usually, they bring in the expertise because what they do for one company, product, or audience, they do for many with similar needs and challenges, so they can provide valuable resources, support, and feedback that, in-house, you might not be able to offer until a certain size is reached.

[00:33:55] Anne-Sophie Engert: Bringing in a partner might be a strategic decision to be more flexible and have more growth opportunities. However, back to the cost point, it’s usually cheaper to outsource, especially if you operate in markets with lower incomes and lower agent prices nearshore or offshore. Additionally, the flexibility with service hours is beneficial. If you work in a 24/7 environment, agents in-house may not be as inclined due to other jobs, obligations, or studies.

[00:34:50] Anne-Sophie Engert:  There it might make sense to bring in a partner. When you know your audience and the languages, and you decide to go with a specific partner, they usually can also support you with a learning management system, quality assurance, and quality management. They have very well-equipped trainers and the resources that you in-house need to build and that costs money too. 

[00:35:14] Anne-Sophie Engert:  So, it is an investment that is necessary to make. The question is just, do you want to share this and bring in an expertise partner, or do you want to build this in-house? Regardless, the investment to bring in good trainers, to bring in good e-learning tools, and to bring the resources to your agents is essential.

[00:35:39] Anne-Sophie Engert: When you know who your audience is what kind of service you can outsource and what you want to keep in-house, then from there you can decide what your agent profile looks like. The best mix is always the best if I can say any reference there.

[00:35:56] Anne-Sophie Engert: The more variety you have, the more successful your team will be because one listens to the other and there’s best practice sharing. At the end of the day, everyone picks up something from someone else, and then you have your master agent, but it might be strategically wise to have someone similar to your product or your customer audience. From my experience, that is absolutely something very valuable.

[00:36:23] Steve MacDonald: I know we could talk all day because there’s so much more. We’ve covered a lot of territory already. If there was one takeaway that you wanted people to have from this podcast, what would that be?

[00:36:42] Anne-Sophie Engert: I think the customer service entity is dealing with the most valuable asset of a company—its customers. So, investing in this department is essential to get the most valuable feedback from your front line to the customer. As I said, it’s the ear and the eye. If you make use of that, and if you value that, and if you invest in it, then you get so much back to your customer that I think makes the whole difference for a successful company.

[00:37:16] Steve MacDonald: Sophie, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all this and unique points of view from how we should be approaching our board and our C-suite to invest in us, giving it a kind of juxtaposition versus other departments that we know people have their mindset. I need to be investing and how we make every department more important and how we help grow the business and looking at our agents and maybe making them more like our customers and giving them more empathy, working with outside partners, balancing best practices, and getting a mix of agents who are very invested in being an agent in their career. 

[00:37:59] Steve MacDonald:  I know people are going to have questions. Would it be appropriate if there were questions that came in for us to provide your link, maybe your LinkedIn profile, so people could get a hold of you?

[00:38:10] Anne-Sophie Engert: Absolutely. It’s a pleasure. As you can see and have heard, this is a topic I’m very passionate about, and I would love to continue the discussion, exchange experiences, and continue the conversations from there.

[00:38:22] Anne-Sophie Engert: Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.